Galaxy Zoo Talk

What is the appropriate thing to do if a Talk thread you started is locked?

  • JeanTate by JeanTate

    ... for a stated reason that has nothing to do with anything that you posted (nor the content of the OP, nor the stated purpose of the thread). Or for no stated reason.

    Off the top of my head, the options I can think of are:

    • send a Message to the mod/admin/scientist who you think locked it (saying ...)
    • start a new thread, with the same content, but a slightly different title (and also send a Message ...)
    • do nothing (the topic cannot be discussed, for a reason unrelated to its content).

    Oh, and not only what, but why (is 'thing to do' appropriate/most appropriate)?

    Posted

  • Capella05 by Capella05 moderator

    Firstly, this is the wrong board to start this topic -but I will leave it for a bit as I suspect the thread you are referring too is the Science Policy thread?

    I locked the thread to prevent it being tampered with. The person involved is entitled to have his case reviewed (and, to answer your next question - it has been reviewed by several Zookeepers / Admins).

    It is not likely to be unlocked.

    I would personally ask myself the question whether it is worth resurrecting the topic - looking at the original thread none of the replies had anything to do with the topic at hand.

    Posted

  • JeanTate by JeanTate in response to Capella05's comment.

    Thanks Capella05. Sorry for the delay in replying*

    Firstly, this is the wrong board to start this topic

    What, then, is the correct board to have started it, may I ask?

    but I will leave it for a bit as I suspect the thread you are referring too is the Science Policy thread?

    I deliberately did not mention any discussion, because I am more interested in the general questions (and their answers).

    The person involved is entitled to have his case reviewed (and, to answer your next question - it has been reviewed by several Zookeepers / Admins).

    Thanks. Do such reviews happen automatically (whenever a thread is locked)? Or does the OP (or any other interested zooite) have to formally request such a review? How does one request such a review? Are Mods involved in such reviews (or is it only Zookeepers/Admins)?

    I would personally ask myself the question whether it is worth resurrecting the topic

    Thanks for the advice.

    Suppose, hypothetically, the OP did wish for the thread to be re-opened/re-started/whatever, what should they do? What should a zooite - not the OP - who wished to have a discussion on a similar topic do? For example, should they request a review - by all the Zookeepers/Admins - first? If so, how do they do that?

    I'd like to quote from a post I wrote in the GZ forum's A thread to talk about Talk thread:

    Here are some such 'best practices' which I think it would be good to incorporate in v3 Talk.

    [...] Simple, Clear Rules: Of the Zooniverse forums, this one is the oldest. And we have survived pretty well, so far, without formal, written rules. However, we have had disputes, and some zooite members have been banned (I'm not counting spamsters; universally spamsters are detested, and perma-banned on sight). And more. The purpose of clear rules is to make the process of addressing disputes (and bans, etc) less arbitrary and stressful. And there are several good models, which are successful because they have evolved and thrived; e.g. CosmoQuest's Rules For Posting To This Board

    *I've been trying to tie up all the loose ends following the no-warning closure of the GZ forum, especially to do with the Slightly-secret Object of the Day Board (of which I was the Mod)

    Posted

  • Capella05 by Capella05 moderator

    The intention of this board is be a sounding area for the more serious citizen scientists - a post with regards to the policy involving a locked thread should of gone in the Help thread.

    In fact, I will move this thread now, so as not to clutter up this board.

    I will allow for a Admin to reply to your remaining questions.

    Posted

  • Capella05 by Capella05 moderator

    Thread has been moved from Science to Help.

    Posted

  • zookeeper by zookeeper admin, scientist

    I'm not a great believer in written constitutions - perhaps it's a British thing - but if someone feels they have been treated unfairly they're welcome to talk to me. I do think the mods do a great job, and we rely on them to decide what's on and what isn't for the most part.

    Posted

  • zookeeper by zookeeper admin, scientist

    On which note, I've always liked wikipedia's fundamental attitude to this stuff :

    While Wikipedia has many elements of a bureaucracy, it is not governed by statute: it is not a quasi-judicial body, and rules are not the purpose of the community. Although some rules may be enforced, the written rules themselves do not set accepted practice. Rather, they document already existing community consensus regarding what should be accepted and what should be rejected.

    (From : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_bureaucracy)

    Not that we're Wikipedia, and nor should we try to be. But there are interesting things in how it's set up.

    Posted

  • JeanTate by JeanTate in response to Capella05's comment.

    Thread has been moved from Science to Help.

    Thank you, Capella05.

    Posted

  • JeanTate by JeanTate in response to zookeeper's comment.

    Thank you, zookeeper.

    if someone feels they have been treated unfairly they're welcome to talk to me.

    What is the best way to do that? By sending you a (v2 Talk) Message, or is some other means preferred?

    I do think the mods do a great job, and we rely on them to decide what's on and what isn't for the most part.

    If I - or any other zooite - disagrees with a mod's actions, is the best approach to deal with that disagreement to also talk to you? What if I - or any other zooite - feels a mod (or anyone else who has posted in GZ Talk) has treated a third zooite unfairly, is the best approach to also talk to you?

    Posted

  • JeanTate by JeanTate in response to zookeeper's comment.

    Thanks for that.

    Although some rules may be enforced, the written rules themselves do not set accepted practice. Rather, they document already existing community consensus regarding what should be accepted and what should be rejected.

    I followed the link, and various other links included in the landing page. I found a great many pages which - as far as I know - have no counterparts in GZ Talk, or indeed anywhere in the Zooniverse*. Here are a few:

    Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines (extract, links omitted: "Although Wikipedia does not employ hard-and-fast rules, Wikipedia policy and guideline pages describe its principles and best-known practices. Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts. Policies and guidelines should always be applied using reason and common sense.")

    Wikipedia:Etiquette (extract: "Wikipedia's contributors come from many different countries and cultures. We have many different views, perspectives, opinions, and backgrounds, sometimes varying widely.")

    Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not (extract: "Wikipedia is not censored")

    Personally, I feel there is a strong need for - at the very least - a clear statement of what you consider to be the already existing community consensus. Better, an open and thorough discussion on what things are, in fact, part of the community consensus (and what are not).

    Could you please suggest when, and where, such a discussion could take place?

    *other than, perhaps, in the Zooniverse User Agreement and Privacy Policy

    Posted

  • zookeeper by zookeeper admin, scientist

    Dear Jean,

    As I mentioned in my post to which you've replied, we're not Wikipedia, and I wasn't advocating the wholesale import of Wikipedia policies into Galaxy Zoo. Nor do I, or the team that have built a very successful community here, necessarily agree with you that writing down a set of guidelines would enhance the experience. You've made your point here and on other threads, and I appreciate your point of view, but in the near future at least we won't be taking up your suggestion.

    Best wishes

    Chris

    Posted

  • zutopian by zutopian

    Actually, this is an old topic, but I was reminded of it one year later, because some days ago another topic was locked!
    I am against it, that topics are locked! If topics are locked, there should be at least clear rules in my opinion, when a moderator is allowed to lock a topic and which circumstances lead to the decision to unlock it!
    BTW, a topic, which had been locked July 11 2014, was unlocked two months later.
    I hope, that the topic, which was locked some days ago, will also be unlocked!

    Posted

  • ElisabethB by ElisabethB moderator

    Sometimes threads get locked and for a variety of reasons.

    And no, the thread you are referring to will not get unlocked.

    Posted

  • zutopian by zutopian in response to ElisabethB's comment.

    And no, the thread you are referring to will not get unlocked.

    What is the difference between those two cases? One got unlocked, but the other one will curiously not be unlocked! Therefore I requested clear rules!

    Posted

  • ElisabethB by ElisabethB moderator

    If you are not happy with that decision,there are other platforms where you are probably more at home.

    Posted

  • zutopian by zutopian in response to ElisabethB's comment.

    If you are not happy with that decision,there are other platforms where you are probably more at home.

    Your reply, which I perceive as inappropiate, doesn't answer my question!

    PS: I hope, that this topic will not be locked!

    Posted

  • ElisabethB by ElisabethB moderator

    Sigh !

    'Locking/unlocking a thread' decisions are made on a per case basis !

    And why is this inappropriate ? You are not happy with the Zooniverse, so why stay here ?

    Posted

  • zutopian by zutopian in response to ElisabethB's comment.

    And why is this inappropriate ? You are not happy with the Zooniverse, so why stay here ?

    Your comment reminded me of a comment by another moderator, who had done a similar remark as a reply to the post by another volunteer in the old GZ forum (May 2014)! Some volunteers had criticized, that the remark by the moderator is inappropiate!

    Posted

  • vrooje by vrooje admin, scientist in response to zutopian's comment.

    The appropriate response to the locking of a thread is already detailed in posts above this one. Chris (zookeeper) suggested contacting him or another admin or science team member.

    I am posting here at the direct request of zutopian after exactly such an appeal.

    That thread was locked by a moderator after a science discussion became personal.

    Another moderator has said above that the thread will not be unlocked, and I see no reason to disagree.

    Being a moderator on a Zooniverse project is a challenging task. Galaxy Zoo has a unique set of challenges, with the moderators constantly having to ensure a balance between giving the deeply engaged and "old hand" members the space to discuss science and pursue their own investigations while also making this a welcoming space for the new members asking the questions that all of us had on our first day here. Those aren't usually in tension with each other, but sometimes they are, and then the moderators have to make difficult decisions.

    I think they do a superb job and I am grateful they're here.

    The thread in question got personal because of what seemed like an old grudge, and the moderators agreed it should be forced to stop before it got worse. That the member who got personal first attempted to re-start the argument on another thread and is now asking to re-start it on the original one while bringing up comments from 18 months ago would seem to justify the moderators' decision, even without my input.

    Please let's stick to the science and keep this a welcoming place for everyone.

    Posted

  • zutopian by zutopian in response to vrooje's comment.

    @vrooje

    Could you please inform ZK Chris, that there are new posts in this topic?
    The actual reason, why I request, that the topic, which was locked some days ago, should be unlocked, is as follows.: I just want to mention a link of a related topic in the unlocked topic! You know, which topics I mean. I think, that there is no good reason, why it shouldn't be allowed! After I did the post, the topic could be locked again!
    I am asking for a reply by ZK Chris!

    PS:

    That the member who got personal first attempted to re-start the argument on another thread and is now asking to re-start it on the original one while bringing up comments from 18 months ago would seem to justify the moderators' decision, even without my input.

    I think, that it is clear to others, that I am the one, who you talk about! Well, I am not annoyed, that it is clear. I just mean, that it is same as if you mentioned my username, isn't it?

    PPS: I edited my post.: I had twice wrongly written "unlocked", though I actually meant "locked". I corrected this, where it was wrong (correction highlighted bold).

    Posted

  • vrooje by vrooje admin, scientist in response to zutopian's comment.

    ZK Chris is travelling so I don't know when he'll be able to respond but I will let him know.

    I wasn't avoiding using your name so much as making it clear that this is a general point. It happens to be your posts this time, that's all.

    Posted

  • zutopian by zutopian in response to vrooje's comment.

    Concerning your below comment in your previous post.:

    That the member who got personal first attempted to re-start the argument on another thread and is now asking to re-start it on the original one while bringing up comments from 18 months ago would seem to justify the moderators' decision, even without my input.

    I think, that your comment is misleading!

    I replied as follows.:
    (...) "The actual reason, why I request, that the topic, which was locked some days ago, should be unlocked, is as follows.: I just want to mention a link of a related topic in the locked topic!" (...)

    In order to make it more clear:

    ... first attempted to re-start the argument on another thread...

    Your comment might be perceived, as if I started a new topic in order to continue the discussion of the locked topic! Actually, I did a post in a topic, which had been started 5 months ago, as you know! The subject of the topic is about the same object, about which I discussed in the locked topic. I didn't know the other topic before! Someone informed me about it, after the topic was locked. I mentioned there the link of the locked topic.

    and is now asking to re-start it on the original one ...

    Well, I request, that the locked topic is unlocked, because I would like to mention just the link of the related topic! Afterwards the topic can be locked again. I think, that there is no good reason, why this shouldn't be allowed!

    Finally, I don't agree with you, that there are things, which would seem to justify the moderators' decision!
    Thanks for informing ZK Chris! I await his reply as soon as he is back!

    Posted

  • Capella05 by Capella05 moderator

    One of the reason why we lock threads is to prevent them from being altered.

    So posts can be preserved for others to review and make there own conclusions. I would suggest not further altering your own posts - true, you may just be correcting grammatical errors, and formatting your post - but if you do so , please add a post script noting that it has been edited and the reason why.

    Edit to add: And this will be the last post I do in this thread - I feel Els and Vrooje have explained it enough.

    Posted

  • zutopian by zutopian

    One of the reason why we lock threads is to prevent them from being altered.

    As I mentioned before, there is another topic, which was locked, but it was unlocked two months later. So it could be altered!
    Besides I would just like to do a post for mentioning a link, as I said before. Afterwards the topic can be locked again! Or a moderator/scientist/admin/DZM could do that post and mention, that s/he did the post on my behalf!

    Posted

  • vrooje by vrooje admin, scientist

    Please let's stick to the science and keep this a welcoming place for everyone.

    Posted

  • zutopian by zutopian in response to vrooje's comment.

    ZK Chris is travelling so I don't know when he'll be able to respond but I will let him know.

    Reminder: I guess, that he is back! I await his response!

    Posted

  • zutopian by zutopian in response to Capella05's comment.

    One of the reason why we lock threads is to prevent them from being altered.
    So posts can be preserved for others to review and make there own conclusions.(...)
    Edit to add: And this will be the last post I do in this thread - I feel Els and Vrooje have explained it enough.

    I had replied before, but here is another reply.:

    If others should be really able to make their own conclusions, they must know the whole story in my opinion! Since I am not allowed to post in the locked topic a link to the related topic, they won't be able to make their own conclusions in my opinion! One might change his/her mind in favour of me, after learning the whole story! I haven't mentioned the links of the locked topic and the related topic here so far, but now I do! Here they are.:

    Locked topic: http://talk.galaxyzoo.org/#/boards/BGZ0000003/discussions/DGZ0001kmc
    Related topic: http://talk.galaxyzoo.org/#/boards/BGZ0000004/discussions/DGZ0001fhf (Page 2)

    PS: I speculate, that ZK Chris probably decided in favour of the moderators, because he hasn't replied so far! Maybe he however hasn't had the kindness to inform, that he (apparently) decided in favour of the mods or he forgot! Who knows? I await a response by him!

    EDIT:
    Since the old GZ forum was archived/ replaced by GZ Talk, all forum topics are locked! I had requested, that the moderators should post links in archived GZ forum discussions, when a forum discussion was continued in GZ Talk! This wasn't realized! I mention this, because I want to inform, that I am in favour of linking discussions not just in the above case!
    Here is the discussion, where I had requested it.: http://talk.galaxyzoo.org/#/boards/BGZ0000003/discussions/DGZ0000v68 ( Page 8 )

    Posted