Galaxy Zoo Talk

Science Policy Issues

  • JeanTate by JeanTate

    Science Policy Issues is the title of a thread in the GZ forum, started by EigenState, on 30 May, 2014:

    Over the past few years, two general phenomena have emerged as potentially significant to the manner in which science is conducted within a modern, connected, and international society. Those phenomena are the concepts of Open Science and of Public Outreach. Both are, in principle at the least, relevant to endeavors of so-called citizen science such as GalaxyZoo and its progeny. Both phenomena have received prior attention within this forum, although probably not in the most coherent or constructive of discussions.

    This thread is therefore intended to be a focused effort to debate--coherently and constructively--the general merits and deficiencies of both phenomena.

    I would suggest that the discussions begin by arriving at consensus definitions of exactly what constitutes both Open Science and Public Outreach.

    Let the debate commence!

    While the thread went a little quiet in the second half of June (2014), with the closing of the forum, this is a good place to keep the debate going!

    Posted

  • ElisabethB by ElisabethB moderator

    @JeanTate

    I suppose you got permission from EigenState to copy his words in this thread ? If you didn't I would strongly recommend you to do so o or else remove this thread.

    Thanks

    Posted

  • JeanTate by JeanTate in response to ElisabethB's comment.

    @ElisabethB thanks very much for your comment! 😃

    I'm a bit conflicted ...

    On the one hand, what EigenState (ES) wrote is public, and so anyone is free to copy (it's even close to mandatory in science, as I understand it, for a proper discussion)*. And given the remit of this section ("A sounding board / contemplation area for our serious Citizens Scientists") as well as the content of the GZ forum Messages which led to its creation, this seems to fit perfectly.

    On the other, as the three of us (and many more zooites too, of course) are members of a community, is it more acceptable to approach ES privately, and at least let him know you (me in this case) are intending to revive/continue the debate (as he calls it) in GZ Talk, rather than just go ahead and do it?

    And in fact, I've been thinking of starting a thread, here, on a closely-related topic: what is "acceptable" in this community? how can you learn what is (and what's not)? how does "acceptable" relate to "doing the right thing"? to ethics? to the Zooniverse's ethical code?

    Back to your question: may I ask why you think it vital that I should have asked ES' permission to copy (with proper attribution) something he published (in public)?

    *the "with proper attribution" part is important too, of course, but I'm a real stickler for that anyway

    Posted

  • zutopian by zutopian in response to JeanTate's comment.

    And in fact, I've been thinking of starting a thread, here, on a closely-related topic: what is "acceptable" in this community? how can you learn what is (and what's not)? how does "acceptable" relate to "doing the right thing"? to ethics? to the Zooniverse's ethical code?

    @Jean 😃

    Please be informed, that Chris did following comment as a reply to the GZ blog post "Thanks to the Forum – and Farewell "::

    chrislintott says : July 10, 2014 at 3:29 pm
    (...) A proper Zooniverse-level discussion forum is definitely part of our plans for the next few months.

    http://blog.galaxyzoo.org/2014/07/09/thanks-to-the-forum-and-farewell/

    So I think, that the forthcoming Zooniverse forum might be a better place for such a discussion. Just my humble opinion.

    Posted

  • graham_d by graham_d

    Infact there is no requirement to ask permission to cite work that is released to the public as long the author is cited, thus conforming to freedom of the press and free speech although it's by no means a universal practice. Additionally, one is free to make a critique, positive or negative in the expression of one's views and as he expresses "let the debate begin". Personally I might find it to be quite boring and as for Public Outreach the Galaxyzooforum closure may show they have shot themselves in the foot. The numbers posting may have been low but the readership was huge when compared with other science blogs. Most readers don't classify much wheras the low posters do.

    A key problem of Outreach is where science team repreentatives become absentee landlords with time. Chris in more than one blog mentioned and paraphrasing that he would get back to this in a few days or to answer a public request in due course after being PM'd by a Moderator. He never did and it's too late now. "A proper Zooniverse-level discussion forum is definitely part of our plans for the next few months.". I personally doubt his sincerity.

    Posted

  • vrooje by vrooje admin, scientist

    Sincere but wildly optimistic time estimates are by no means unique to any one person or group. Whenever I hear a statement like that from an Extremely Busy Person, I hear it as "I want to return to this and I will try but in this moment I may not be realistically considering all the constraints on my time, so it may be that you'll have to chase me up." Occasionally people have actually said that to me, but mostly I just infer it.

    If you want to grumble about the forum's retirement there is another thread for that; if you want to accuse Chris of being insincere then in my personal opinion you should do it on some other platform than one he has developed and built through years of effort and spends most of his time trying to ensure the survival and positive evolution of.

    That being said: I do agree that Chris' statement above is likely not a promise that it will be finished in the next few months. The next step for the Zooniverse community platform is likely a big one and it may take months just to plan it and make all the big decisions about it; once that stage is finished I do not know how long it will take to build, test, and deploy it.

    In the meantime, if you'd like to have a say in what the future of the community looks like, you can do so here. All feedback is welcome.

    Posted

  • ElisabethB by ElisabethB moderator in response to JeanTate's comment.

    Hi Jean,

    I for one would feel very uncomfortable with finding something I wrote on a forum/talk that I am not involved with. Maybe ES has no wish to participate here or to have this discussion in here. We have no way of knowing that, unless you ask him. For me, that is common courtesy.

    Posted

  • graham_d by graham_d

    Elizabeth I have had no wish to make you feel uncomfortable at all. It actually doesn't matter whether Eigenstate wishes to participate or not and if he does he might have major problems finding this thread; latest Talk responses are 1-2 years old. Talk isn't the best location for a rescussitated galaxy zoo forum; infact ES Robert suggests Cosmoquest and it's extant.

    Vrooje -I am a retired academic scientist(69) and I never was an Extremely BusyPerson and a business technical director for a team of 130 scientists that I didn't know the need to delegate and maintain an active outreach with contractors and public interest. Nor have I grumbled. If you want to come up todate with what was becoming an extinct forum then read this grouse

    http://www.galaxyzooforum.org/index.php?topic=281894.15

    Do you really think Twitter or Facebook is an appropriate and sole vehicle for Outreach to educated folk?

    However, "...there is another thread..." Is there? It was killed. I am afraid you have missed the boat Vrooje. Jean has proffered sound advice on many occasions on the defunct forum. She has a very piercing, forthright and analytical style and an excellent and dedicated long term classifier as is Elizabeth B. Many of those scientists out there are mysogenists- you need more Jean types here. If you piss off Jean who will you be left with?
    Best wishes for the future
    Graham Dungworth

    Posted

  • vrooje by vrooje admin, scientist in response to graham d's comment.

    The forum/Talk changeover is being discussed here. I think the moderators here are managing the changeover very well.

    As far as I can tell most of your post is off-topic for this thread. I would be happy to discuss outreach elsewhere, possibly in the Chat section.

    Posted

  • graham_d by graham_d

    My points were beyond the scientific scope and remit of moderators but certainly pertinent to the behaviour of admin. The changeover there you refer to reveals the last post was more than 2 days ago. Without any forewarning to the public or classifiers the galaxyzooforum was terminated, after an epic seven year life. You are living in cloud cuckoo land and I feel ashamed that fellow scientists should display a complete lack of understanding. It's private industry and public taxes that are the bedrock for science funding.This is my last post here. I shall continue the debate at a higher level elsewhere.

    Posted

  • Capella05 by Capella05 moderator in response to graham d's comment.

    @grahamd - That is really overstepping the line, we have always tried to keep the conversations here civil and respectful, but insulting the volunteers / moderators and scientists of this site is unacceptable. Your privileges to post on here have been rescinded.

    If you wish to contact us with regards to this decision, you still have the option to use use the PM feature.

    Thread locked.

    Posted

  • Capella05 by Capella05 moderator

    Thread unlocked and member reinstated.

    Hopefully, now that time has passed, and the forum closer is old news, we can get this thread back on track.

    If anyone would like posts removed, please contact me directly. Thanks!

    Posted

  • elizabeth_s by elizabeth_s in response to Capella05's comment.

    Old news yes it is. graham good to see you back 😃 I would say more but not on open forum ... Or talk.

    Posted

  • zutopian by zutopian in response to Capella05's comment.

    Thread unlocked and member reinstated.

    I am pleased to hear this! 😃

    Posted

  • Capella05 by Capella05 moderator in response to elizabeth's comment.

    I would say more but not on open forum ... Or talk.

    ??? Clarification Liz?

    You can't post something so inflammatory without backing up your reasoning / sources?

    I had hoped we could all move on.

    Posted